Talk:List of dead characters
Pre and Post-Scratch Jane and Jake It may be helpful to remember that Pre-Scratch Jane refers to Nanna and Pre-Scratch Jake refers to Grandpa, both of whom are known to die. Post-Scratch Jake's real self is alive and Post-Scratch Jane is unknown. OzarMidrashim 18:30, December 9, 2011 (UTC) Scope Either this should be retitled "...in Homestuck" or we need Jailbreak and Problem Sleuth sections in this page (the Bard in Bard's Quest dies a lot but it's presumably not canon). And since both properties involve characters canonically dying and then canonically continuing life, they will be reflexive and confusing, as is ideal. 18:42, December 15, 2011 (UTC) :Good point. I'd say HS needs a page to itself, just because there are so many to keep track of... perhaps change this article so that it covers everything but HS, and then put a notification on it saying, "This article covers Jailbreak, Bard Quest, and Problem Sleuth. For Homestuck, see '''List of dead Homestuck characters. Or perhaps have it as a subpage of this one, something like '''List of dead characters/Homestuck Post-Scratch Dersite Agents We need to make room for them around here and differentiate them from pre-Scratch versions. Judging by Dirk's dream self appearance in latest Roxy's sleepwalking animation and Jack Noir's exposition during ball-dropping mission we already have DEAD DERSITE chucked out of Dirk's window. Matpmar 23:05, January 23, 2012 (UTC) More Subtitles? I think we need to organize this page a little more, in terms of creating more subtitles to put things under Some suggestions I've thought of are: "Pre-Scratch Earth", "Post-Scratch Earth", "Pre-Scratch Alternia," and "Post Scratch Alternia I'd gladly do it myself; I'm just putting this here as a way to ask whether people agree with me or not Jazztasm 15:38, April 1, 2012 (UTC) Yeah, that makes sence. I think it would be a wonderful idea. It needs a little more organization. -EverlastingSnow 20:08, December 9, 2012 (UTC) Empty??? This seems kind of fast but, does anyone else see the page empty? I am the wizard its me 16:05, April 1, 2012 (UTC) Uh Yeah What happened there Jazztasm 16:08, April 1, 2012 (UTC) Hmm. Well I undid the edit and yeah. It wasn't empty the last edit. I am the wizard its me 16:27, April 1, 2012 (UTC) It's still empty for me Jazztasm 16:40, April 1, 2012 (UTC) Well I guess we need to know how to fix it. I am the wizard its me 16:47, April 1, 2012 (UTC) But if you try to edit it, it is all there, just not showing up. I am the wizard its me 16:48, April 1, 2012 (UTC) Terezi's dream self? Isn't Terezi's dream self alive? When Vriska was trying to make Tavros kill her, it showed Vriska's dream self on Prospit with her blood appearing. Terezi's dream self was standing next to her, and I think I recall her slapping Vriska as well. So isn't Terezi's dream self still alive? Or was this before Jack went on his rampage through the trolls' session..? I'm sort of confused and I may be mixing up my timelines and time stuff, but I wanted to check. MistPower101 (talk) 22:00, August 20, 2012 (UTC) :Yeah that was long before Jack's rampage. The Light6 (talk) 22:40, August 20, 2012 (UTC) ::Okay, thanks! MistPower101 (talk) 00:42, August 21, 2012 (UTC) Gamzee dead? It doesn't appear to be certain that Gamzee Makara is dead at this point. The last we saw of him was him being bullet-ridden by uu - something which may or may not be fatal depending on whether Gamzee is god tier or not. He could have attained god tier before the destruction of the trolls' session, as Vriska did, and the massive amount of damage he allegedly dealt to the Black King would suggest this. So would it not be wise to remove the addition of Gamzee until the next update, when it is established just how dead he actually is. Peakey (talk) 23:00, November 18, 2012 (UTC) He's most likely dead. The GT wings were fake. Per Ankh ED 03:21, November 19, 2012 (UTC) As I mentioned in the edit history, the page goes by the latest update, he could revive in the next update, but as of this update he is currently dead, if the next update changes it, then the page is changed again. Plus as Per said, as far as we can tell he isn't actually god tier. - The Light6 (talk) 06:03, November 19, 2012 (UTC) Yeah my original post was before we saw his wings fall off. I think it's probably safe to say he isn't god tier. Peakey (talk) 10:05, November 19, 2012 (UTC) There are too many dead characters It would just be easier to list what characters are alive. The list would be a lot shorter, too. 08:36, December 9, 2012 (UTC) :The list also details the causes of death, which is important info. We do list who's still alive, but most of them have also died in at least one sense. That's the thing with Homestuck – there are a multitude of deadness attributes Combine mentions of Serenity and Calliope? With recent developments, it may be wise to at least mention that Calliope and (post-scratch??) Serenity are the same being. Hooktail154 (talk) 20:29, December 28, 2012 (UTC) :No, because while Calliope took that form in a dream bubble there is still nothing saying that Serenity was always Calliope. Also this was discussed before. - The Light6 (talk) 00:08, December 29, 2012 (UTC) Equius's Double Death I recently observed that the section for Double Death had edited where it said "An instance of Equius" so that it said "A doomed timeline of Equius". When I edited this back, it was changed back again. When I checked the history, the reasoning of the other editor was that "Instance" was unneccesary and gramatically problematic. So I find it neccesary to specify here: We don't know if it was Equius from a doomed timeline or from the alpha timeline. So saying it's an "Instance" seems like it's about as specific as we should be getting. If somebody could figure out a better way to say it gramatically, I would be perfectly fine with that too, but specifying it's him from a doomed timeline I think is certainly disingenuous. Dhock513 (talk) 21:17, January 28, 2013 (UTC) What I meant was "a instance" is grammatically incorrect, sorry for being unclear. But you do have a point, we don't know that that's a doomed timeline Equius. I hadn't thought of that. Though maybe ARquiusprite is enough proof that the Alpha Equius's ghost was intact? 21:21, January 28, 2013 (UTC) I dunno. I mean yeah, the fact that Equius's personality was able to be salvaged from his corpse might imply his soul was still existent in the furthest ring, and that certainly is how it worked with Tavrisprite. But Nanna and Jasper's personalities were also salvaged from their remains, and they didn't have ghosts to begin with since they weren't Sburb players. So I kinda figured that wasn't really relevant. I think probably we should just keep it vague, say "an instance." I'm gonna do that until any has any better ideas. Dhock513 (talk) 22:08, January 28, 2013 (UTC) Karkat If one were to ignore today's update, wouldn't Karkat technically have never died in the alpha timeline? I did a ctrl+f of Karkat's name and all instances of him on this page are offshoot timelines. 23:18, June 30, 2013 (UTC) :That's because alpha Karkat was removed from the section of character's who have never died about two hours before you posted this message. But yeah, while Karkat is about to die and subsequently revive, thus moving him to the "Temporarily dead" section. However in the last panel we saw he was "dying" not "dead", so I'm going to revert the edit as opposed to leaving Karkat's status in limbo. - The Light6 (talk) 01:35, July 1, 2013 (UTC) ::Important note: This leaves the count on Sollux's prophecy down to Terezi and Gamzee. 03:47, July 1, 2013 (UTC) :::It also leaves the Condesce. Dhock513 (talk) 23:47, July 2, 2013 (UTC) ::::When he said :::::" " ::::I was fairly certain he was referring to his player group, though I'm not denying that Condy has to die at some point. I just didn't necessarily think the prophecy applied to her. Not that it matters, it's a nuance. 00:41, July 3, 2013 (UTC) :::::I was thinking about this :::::" " Dhock513 (talk) 00:00, July 4, 2013 (UTC) Ah so I was looking at the wrong quote on the page then. Well played, I do see your point. 04:48, July 4, 2013 (UTC) Serenity Wait, did we lose track of Serenity? I don't think the dream bubble projection counts, since it was just Calliope in disguise. She was with Roxy just before Unite Synchronization, and then... what? Was she in that flash? Was she there on LOMAX afterwards? And then where did she go? 03:49, July 1, 2013 (UTC) :Serenity was definitely with Roxy when the Alpha kids entered the Medium. After that, I'm not sure. 03:56, July 1, 2013 (UTC) Sollux I think, and this is just my opinion, we should just move him into the "Temporarily dead" category. Because he did ''fully die, in the glub and stuff before becoming his Derse self. So he was half-dead, but he was also just ''dead ''dead, and now he's totally alive, and I'm not sure that merits it's whole own section. Like when he was still half-dead, I get how having his own section made sense. But now that he's just alive his half-deadness just kinda seems like a thing that happened to him in the past. So I think temporarily dead would be fine, or at least I certainly don't think it's any less valid than the category we have him in now. Dhock513 (talk) 23:47, July 2, 2013 (UTC) :"his half-deadness just kinda seems like a thing that happened to him in the past" By that logic, a character havign died and come back to life shouldn't be counted either. I think it ''does merit its own section, because in many ways Sollux is a special case. 00:44, July 3, 2013 (UTC) ::Yeah, I'm not saying cause it happened in the past it's irrelevant, I just don't think it's more relevant than say, his real death. I think his half-deadness was more relevant than his past real-deadness when it was present. I'm just not sure it merits it's own section now that it's all past stuff, past the temporarily dead category. But I guess he's a special case. Whatevs it doesn't really matter. Dhock513 (talk) 23:55, July 3, 2013 (UTC) WV Are we sure WV didn't die? I know he was healed and stuff, but it seems like Jade explained that lifey powers can bring someone back to life, but they only work once. And he was healed by Feferi's lifey powers. Also no one ever actually says he was alive, so I'm kinda figuring he might have actually been temporarily dead? I dunno Dhock513 (talk) 00:15, July 3, 2013 (UTC) :Well while Feferi and Jane are both heroes of Life, they have different classes. While a Maid of Life can revive people that doesn't mean other heroes of Life can do the same thing, for example; the Condesce could extend the Helmsman's life but not restore it. I think to get a clear answer on the matter we would need to get proper in-canon definitions of both Maid and Witch. Also I felt the dialogue in A6I1 seemed to come off as if WV was only injured, not dead. - The Light6 (talk) 00:25, July 3, 2013 (UTC) ::I dunno about the last part. Dave asks if he's dead and Rose doesn't answer, she just says he'll get help. And yeah we don't know if a Witch of Life does the same thing as a Maid of Life, you're right. I think, it's probably ambiguous. Although, a ambiguously temporarily dead category would be dumb. Wheteves, I guess we could just leave it as it is, it's pretty minor. Dhock513 (talk) 00:47, July 3, 2013 (UTC) :::WV isn't the only one who was ambiguously temporarily dead. There was also Lil Hal before he was prototyped into ARquiusprite. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 11:27, July 6, 2013 (UTC) ::::I never considered it that way, I figured AR just had nothing left to say at the end of that conversation. 12:11, July 6, 2013 (UTC) Jade Doesn't Meenah imply everything Aranea's done there has been part of an offshoot timeline? I mean, Aranea plans on turning it into the alpha somehow, but I'd hardly say this was the alpha Jade's death, at least yet. Dhock513 (talk) 22:49, September 22, 2013 (UTC) :That won't be clear unless and until she successfully prevents the cherub universe from being created. Until then, it's best to assume it's all still alpha. -- 23:21, September 22, 2013 (UTC) ::Ya okay. At some point this'll all be explained, I'm fine with keeping it as it is until then. I just felt it was right to bring it up. Dhock513 (talk) 23:30, September 22, 2013 (UTC) Dave Should we list the many, many, many isntances of dead alternate Daves? The2ndplayer (talk) 22:05, December 28, 2013 (UTC) :They are already listed. There have actually only been two dead alternate Daves, not really that many, and those two were doubled killed by , so they are in the double dead section. - The Light6 (talk) 23:57, December 28, 2013 (UTC) ::Theres also the preposterous amount of off-shoot doomed time-line Daves created during his shenanigans in the LOHACSE. Most of which were likely reset during the scratch. The2ndplayer (talk) 20:22, January 3, 2014 (UTC) :::That's not how the scratch works. See: all the doomed timeline ghosts from the pre-scratch troll session. 22:06, January 3, 2014 (UTC) ::::Plus Dave was using time loops for his LOHACSE shenanigans, not doomed timelines. - The Light6 (talk) 00:14, January 4, 2014 (UTC) Gamzee Gamzee was cut in half by kanaya on the 10/25 update and it is listed here as dead, but as it stands there was no dead tag of any sort, wether he was in fact godteir or not. this also happened with nepeta, but seeing as how clowns are notoriously difficult to kill, theres a great chance that he is still alive PissedCanadian (talk) 01:14, October 26, 2014 (UTC) :ok help me out, what also happened with nepeta? also I know that gamzee had previously appeared to be dead but turned out not to be, but he appears to be dead. and godtier or not a death would still be a death... I'm in favor of leaving it unless or until it's shown otherwise. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 01:50, October 26, 2014 (UTC) ::Nepeta was killed off-screen and never received a death tag. Really the lack of a death tag is basically meaningless, previous perma-dead god tiers have had both a judgement and dead tag but in the Flash they only got a judgement. And in fact death tags have never appeared in Flashes before. As I already said; lack of a death tag of Gamzee here is basically meaningless. - The Light6 (talk) 02:09, October 26, 2014 (UTC) :::The problem with Gamzee being sawed in half, is that he has to be alive for Caliborn to encounter him on post-scratch-pulled-into-dead-session Earth. Which means that the timelines were split at one point and are bound to change. 00:32, October 27, 2014 (UTC)Gue5762 ::::Except it's totally plausible that that session could've come first for Gamzee. In fact, his current lack of fake god tier wings strongly indicates it did come first. :::::indeed there is a live gamzee on earth who will probably wait until the cherub is born, and raise them and then serve him and then go back in time (probably using the music box)... honestly I don't know why anyone is confused about this. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 00:51, October 27, 2014 (UTC) irrelevant specification? I don't think it is insignificant that 2 versions of Meenah killed Aranea, indeed I think that should be noted somehow. as for whether she was choked to death or her neck was snapped, the snap hadn't loaded for me the first time, I apologize for that.Whohoohuwhu (talk) 03:21, October 26, 2014 (UTC) "Unknown timeline." Is it necessary to assume that the events of Act 6-6-I2 and 6-6-I3 might be part of a doomed timeline? I don't think there's any indication that it isn't part of the alpha timeline, and it would be pretty bad writing if the comic just went up and said "By the way, none of these deaths really happened, they're still alive and everything is relatively fine." Just because a lot of characters die doesn't mean that it's just a "what if." It could be leading up to a Dream Bubble meeting or something like that. I think all of the deaths should be moved to their respective fields, and remove the "Unknown timeline" section. Plus, I don't even think that's possible. The only Times players are Dave and Davesprite, and the former's dead, and the latter already went through a doomed timeline scenario, so from a writing standpoint (again) it wouldn't make sense if he had to do it twice. Great pikmin fan (talk) 20:39, October 26, 2014 (UTC) :Meenah said it wasn't a part of the legit chain of events. Aranea intended to doom the timeline. The session is literally destroyed. Our last living Space player and her Knight, both of whom's audience Echidna requested, are now dead. True or not, we have several reason to at least suspect the timeline is doomed. Furthermore, a doomed timeline doesn't require a time player. A good example is the one where Terezi doesn't stab Vriska, and Vriska fights Jack. But if it did, there's still Aradia. So no, we're not changing it until we have confirmation of some sort. 21:29, October 26, 2014 (UTC) :EDIT CONFLICT: It's extremely likely that they are, but we should be assuming that it's the alpha until it is shown otherwise. So I guess I'm in disagreement with my fellow sysop on that, as it looks like TL6 was the one who changed it. That said, we could do a lot worse than "Unknown timeline" (at least it doesn't say "Probable doomed timeline"). I mean, it's an absolutely correct descriptor, though it does introduce bias towards implying that it isn't alpha just by virtue of suggesting it may not be. To be honest, it's probably okay to leave it now, but yes, I agree that it perhaps shouldn't have been changed initially. tl;dr The "Unknown timeline" heading is not ideal but is at least also not untrue, whatever happens. :Also, FWIW, no rule has been established that only a Time player can undo a doomed timeline. Doomed timelines by definition are offshoots of the alpha, and so the alpha must exist already alongside it. The question is what purpose a doomed timeline serves – what influence it exerts on the alpha. And we know Gamzee had Aradia's music boxes, so any other player could operate those to travel back to the divergence point. And then there's also John. So there are options ::I don't quite get what you mean about there being no live time players, Aradia is still alive in the outer ring. Also just because they are dead doesn't mean that Dave and Jade can't have an audience with Echidna, again davesprite is still alive, and unless it's gone missing the ring of life, and life players (it's not specified that they must be alive to use their powers) can bring people back... that said it could all be a doomed timeline, but I'm inclined not to think so. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 23:29, October 26, 2014 (UTC) :::Nobody said there weren't any Time players left alive. But yeah, just Aradia and Caliborn. We don't even know Davesprite's fate, or any of the other sprites on LOTAK. Regarding Echidna, she asked for Karkat and Kanaya. I was referring to Karkat and Kanaya. Dave and Jade couldn't until being revived, because how would they meet Echidna in a dream bubble? Anyway that's irrelevant, because she asked for the players that were dissolved in molten lava and vaporized by psiioniics. And despite the given facts that the Ring of Life could bring Jane back, the Condesce is likely to do so, and Jane could revive most of the dead players, I'm pretty sure she does have to be within shooting range of a person to revive them. 23:44, October 26, 2014 (UTC) ::::I never read that part closely enough till now, I had always thought Echidna would talk to jade so long as she wasn't grimdark, along with Dave... but that's not important, if she can revive ghosts she can raise Kanaya (assuming revival doesn't hurt her, as some players speculate) and I suppose she could revive a doomed Karkat who had helped a doomed Kanaya with frog breeding... but it is beginning to look less likely that they will be able to make any kind of deal with Echidna... Whohoohuwhu (talk) 00:28, October 27, 2014 (UTC) :::::This discussion is kind off out of date since recent developments but regardless of that I'm still going to respond. :::::Firstly on whether we should assume alpha unless shown otherwise, I agree with that; mostly. As Aepokk said, earlier on we had Meenah state that Aranea being their was not part of how things were supposed to happen, and Meenah claimed Aranea knew this which led to Aranea explaining her plan. That means we already had character confirmation that this was a doomed timeline, that means assuming it to be the alpha requires assuming a character is incorrect, that isn't to say they can't be, especially in Homestuck, but as character dialogue serves as a vehicle for exposition I think we need to be careful when assuming a character is wrong. :::::Secondly, we have been given a number of details about how events were to unfold, GAME OVER of course disrupted that greatly, either indicating that 1) Meenah was right or 2) both Meenah was wrong about the change of events AND hints/details given earlier were wrong. As you can probably see, #2 is kind of the larger assumption. Continuing to presume alpha status under this particular set of circumstances seemed like an incorrect course of action to me. However instead of just writing it off as doomed, I labelled it unknown until such a time more information was available. :::::And of course more information is now available, we've had Roxy speculate to be doomed and had another timeline introduced and had the Jade from that timeline outright state this is a doomed timeline (again after Meenah already did). Combined with recent events (ambiguous though they are) I think we can probably say that GAME OVER was not the alpha, even if we can't say it with total 100% certainty, it is certainly the less presumptive statement then assuming multiple characters to be wrong. - The Light6 (talk) 13:30, December 2, 2014 (UTC) Glitch Dust there may not be precedent for the glitch harming players but it also has not turned planets into dust... Dirk may not be dead, but I think we may not ever see him again, and I doubt it happened without him knowing it was happening, it may have even been his "choice" I suppose we'll see what happens when the dust settles though ;p Whohoohuwhu (talk) 21:27, November 5, 2014 (UTC) :I personally agree that the obliterative degree shown here, as well as the sheer scale, is concerning. Plus I'm not really sure why John didn't attempt to just clear them up. 23:31, November 5, 2014 (UTC) in anticipation of John and Roxys return to the alpha should their former alphas be consider temporarily dead and replaced by an alternate, this will have been the first time we ran across this situation and I thought it would be worth discussing before it becomes a thing. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 21:15, December 3, 2014 (UTC) :Wow yeah this is gonna be weird to describe, I'm... not really sure? For an initial proposal, though, that's an impressive solution to the conundrum. I personally can't think of a better way to address it right now. 23:45, December 3, 2014 (UTC) ::well thank you, I wasn't to sure of it at first, but it was the best I could think of, I still think there may be a better way to describe it, but I can't think of how myself. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 00:59, December 4, 2014 (UTC) Unnecessary subheadings As much as I love the "Notoriously difficult to kill for reasons that basically don't make any sense" subheader, I think it might be about time to retire it. I feel like even being killed in a doomed timeline is enough to make him being in a category by himself pointless. Possibly the "sad face" thing too, since at this point the article doesn't really have anything to do with the image of Hussie crossing out all the characters except as an illustration. Sporkaganza (talk) 07:22, December 11, 2014 (UTC) :yeah I agree, those aren't really needed. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 21:21, December 11, 2014 (UTC) ::I never understood why the wolf was there, but I think Gamzee's enhanced mortality is still a valid thing. 21:38, December 11, 2014 (UTC) :::maybe we could give it a better name? I think Joker immunity would be a good name. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 22:22, December 11, 2014 (UTC) ::::To be fair, the current title is the most canonical word we have on the matter 22:36, December 11, 2014 (UTC) ::::Why would I change it to that? The heading we have now is a much better name. Like I said, I love it but I still think it doesn't seem necessary anymore. Sporkaganza (talk) 00:28, December 12, 2014 (UTC) :::::yeah you're right the name is ok... I'm not sure if it should stay or not, I mean he did die... but just because he died doesn't mean his not known as being difficult to kill, hell he's been shown to be very very resilient. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 00:47, December 12, 2014 (UTC) ::::::Actually, reconsidering.... while it's a valid thing, we kinda already backed up coverage of this on the new Conditional Immortality page, didn't we? 04:52, December 12, 2014 (UTC) :::::::yes, this subject is listed there, that subheading probably should have been deleted on the creation of conditional immortality Whohoohuwhu (talk) 19:55, December 12, 2014 (UTC) FWIW, I stand by those headings on the basis of liking this wiki having a sense of humour. I take it upon myself on occasion to inject fun little things like that, though I generally strive to stay within the bounds of what Hussie actually gives us to work with. In the case of the wolf head, he most certainly gave us the sad face... although strictly speaking he actually gave us ": (", which is what I put originally. It got changed to words at some point that I cba to dig through page history just to check. I'm not really arguing against them having been removed. I just liked them, as part of my aim to try and stop the wiki going from "serious" – i.e. dedicated to being properly informative, which we do want – to "too serious" – i.e. not allowed to have fun along the way, which we (or at least I) don't want :I mean...that is a fair point, it's one of the things I've always valued about this wiki. For instance, look at the Pumpkin page. What Pumpkin page, you ask? And that being said, maybe we could add Gamzee's back in. It does, after all, fit with the death category, and we could link it through to the conditional immortality page! 01:49, December 14, 2014 (UTC) ::Okay, wow, count the sad face as an obvious thing I missed that was . I'm truly sorry, SN. 10:19, January 18, 2015 (UTC) Retconned now that we are apparently calling the timeline all those deaths occur in "the alpha" what are we going to do as the timelines change? the events still happened in the comic, does this perhaps warrant a new section? I want to be on the same page everyone else is on... also this pages quality is degrading, I want to work on it, but I don't know if the changes I make will stick, it almost seems like I've been a catalyst in making it worse, certainly I'll try, but not right now. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 15:25, December 24, 2014 (UTC) :It may be best to leave this page be for a while, or at least stick a note on it to say it's all over the place. It's pretty hard to decide how best to tackle it until we know where everything stands. Trying to make sense of timelines for this page has been really damn awkward ever since GAME OVER ::since unknown timeline had been the best compromise, I made some attempt to bring that back, hopefully this will suffice for the time being. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 23:28, December 25, 2014 (UTC) Offshoot timeline subsections I think that sub sections in the offshoot timelines might be a little bit cleaner, in a similar manner to what I did for unknown timelines (which will make sense once we organize the unknown timeline deaths into the doomed and alpha timelines) I think good names for them are alternate predominatation, for the timeline where Calliope predominated, secret boss, for the timeline where Vriska challenges Bec Noir, and one more for unseen timelines. In any case I'm posting this because I'd rather not mess with something that's been fine the way it is for so long without consulting everyone else who cares to input on this. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 07:50, January 13, 2015 (UTC) Lil Cal I'm not sure if Lil Cal should even be listed on this page. From what we now know, he isn't really a living thing, just an inanimate object that contains the souls of others. All his living characteristics (winking, moving around, etc) only come from the souls trapped inside him, and he's still counted as "alive" when empty of them. Because of juju mechanics he'll never be created or destroyed, and even though he was cast into the void he still comes back in various universes anyway, so that doesn't count as death. It no longer makes sense to list him as a character on here. -ConcreteSunshine (talk) 22:57, April 23, 2015 (UTC) :While I'm definitely starting to think he may not belong on this page, by all technicalities he can bedestroyed (B2 Prospit) and he can be dead (as with B2 Dirk) 04:59, April 24, 2015 (UTC) ::The problem is distinguishing between the lives of the souls and of Cal himself, and between death and destruction. Caliborn's use of "dead" was just a figure of speech-- Cal had never died, he was actually earlier in his timeline than he would be when counted as "alive" on the basis of soul-possession. It can be argued that the Cal on B2 Derse did not technically "die" either, even though he was mostly destroyed, since the souls that gave him life remained within his eyes and were transferred into Jack Noir and stayed "alive". It's hard to define life and death for an object with no life force of its own. If we're just tracing the arcs of existence, that can be done for any object that follows a timeline-- the trolls' Black Queen's ring isn't listed as dead, and neither are any of Terezi's named scalemates. -ConcreteSunshine (talk) 01:46, April 25, 2015 (UTC) New revived characters Tavros and Nepeta have now been brought back as sprites; should then they be moved to characters temporarily dead? Also, re: uncertain timeline, I think it's fairly clear that the retconned timeline is the alpha now, and this entire article should possibly be updated to reflect that, as it still largely reflects the field of play pre-retcon. BlackholeMW (talk) 08:51, July 7, 2015 (UTC) :Yeah, the retcon stuff has been throwing a wrench in this page from the start, and now it's just way outdated. I won't have time to look it over in depth this week/end myself, but if nobody else does it by next Monday I can look then. 07:31, July 8, 2015 (UTC)